MMW Case for Humans SGC 2008 discussion
Welcome to the workgroup of the 2008 SGC on Making the Case for human-based exploration beyond LEO. If you are new to this workshop, I invite you to read the posts of last year to familiarize yourself with the discussions. I will also shortly post the current status of our paper. We are tentatively working with "Agenda Wannabe", a media agency based in New Delhi that have much experience in short-film creation. Stay tuned!
hi,
sanjoy last time i was participating in the discussion on managirial activity and in my project also but i cant reach to the hydrabad due to some of my personal reasons....i would like to know about the "human-based exploraton beyond LEO" so please send me some information for reading.....
gaurang mehta
india
Sorry this took so long, I was out of internet access for a week. I have loaded the final report of SGC 2007 as of end of October. This is the document we will be improving upon for the PAPER WE NEED TO HAVE FINISHED BY THE END OF AUGUST and from which we will develop the short videoclip.
You can read it here
Hey Sanjoy
I read through the report from SGC on "A global imperative- we must go!". Excellent work!!
The rationale for human based space exploration has been very well presented.
With the population explosion and insatiable consumption of resources, i do believe that man will be forced to move out of the earth some day. Preparing for that day from now itself would be very wise
Stephan Hawking also seems to be a strong supporter of "man colonizing space" idea. Here is the link to one of his interviews:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2001/10/16/nhawk16....
I'll try and post more soon
Rahul Suresh
All,
This is to let you know that our work has been accepted by the IAC for presentation in Glasgow. How exciting! Here is our chance to present our ideas in front of space professionals. Please take the time to read the paper and identify its weaknesses and post those here!
I went through the SGC-07 document. The following were the reasons presented for human-based exploration beyond LEO: (pardon me if i have missed out anything)
1. A human centered endeavor
2. Benefiting humanity
3. Technological spin-offs
4. Promoting Harmonious international relationships
All the four reasons mentioned above are well justified. But i feel there is one more thing that could be added- that is to make a strong case that the space is the only way out for humanity!
With the present rate of exponential population growth and rapid depletion of resources, earth would not be able to sustain all of us. Lack of drinking water, shelter, food, natural resources like oil etc would make earth like Atacama desert. So what are the alternatives we have? How could we save humanity? -
Space is the only way out. For that, it would become imperative for us to start human-based exploration beyond LEO immediately.
The Notion of "going to space to save humanity" may sound a little far-fetched but it is quite possible at the present rate of environmental degradation due to human activities.
If we are able to strongly convey to the people that "space would be the only way out" for the future generations and we have to prepare ourselves for that right from today, we would be making a pretty big impact on people.
But how do we do that?
Rahul Suresh
Stephen Hawking calls for Moon and Mars colonies
http://space.newscientist.com/article/dn13748-stephen-hawking-calls-for-...
YAYYY..our paper got accepted :)
Much work to do now!
Sanj, the link you have up here is the lastest version? or do we have anything updated since OCT 07? (I thought we had one)
-KK
~!I Don't Want to be one in the crowd; I want to be One Above the crowd!~
Rahul, Kavya,
Thanks for your comments.
Yes Kavya, the one loaded is the latest "complete" version. Joe Palaia did some changes but they were mostly grammatical, which is great! But of less prime importance as essence, structure and message of the paper.
Rahul, you are correct. Space as an escape route to overpopulation is valid, but that is soooo way out there that it is hard to sell as an argument today. Much good can be done in terms of resource management on Earth to accommodate for a larger population. I'm not saying that what you said is wrong, far from it, but it might not be a strong selling point today.
Of the four points you outlined:
1. A human centered endeavor
2. Benefiting humanity
3. Technological spin-offs
4. Promoting Harmonious international relationships
What would be the best way to present this in a short movie? A conversation between two people? I set of images with a narrator in the background?...
Great comments guys, keep at it!
Cheers,
Sanjoy
Hi Sanjoy,
Well, i do agree that trying to sell our case by talking about far-fetched concepts like "escaping to space" or "colonizing space" may sound absurd. But the question is: Who are we trying to convince here?
If we are trying to reach out to technocrats and scientists, then we could stress on better resource management and technological spin offs.
But would it be appealing enough to the governments around the world, who allocate budgets to their national space programs? I do not know how US congress is going to see it. But at least for a country like India, which has limited annual budgets for space program, is not going to consider manned flights to moon unless it is inexorable for human survival. By this I do not mean “colonizing moon” but more like how manned flights could help solving problems like energy crisis, overpopulation etc.
While all the 4 points you guys have put forth in the above document are very valid and self-justifying, it wouldn't harm us to create some hysteria- especially among politicians, to speed up the entire process.
Rahul
If we are trying to make a movie, a documentary along the lines of "save-the-earth" movies should send a strong message. Most of the environmental documentaries generally instill so much passion in the viewers.
Stuff like "human-based endeavor", "matter of pride", "one earth into space", "to know our immediate neighbor" would make basis for a good movie, a really sentimental one!
Speaking more realistically, by the end of the video clip, an average viewer should be able to understand :
1. what human based lunar exploration is.
2. why human based lunar exploration is important.
3. the near terms benefits derived from it
4. long term benefits derived from it
Amongst the 4 points presented in the SGC document, technological spin-offs may not be appealing enough but the other 3 points are!
Sanjoy,
In your first post, you said that you are working with a New-Delhi based media agency. If there is any work that needs to be done from India (like meeting up with the agency or some negotiation or something), i would be more than happy to pitch in.
Cheers,
Rahul
Thanks Rahul!
I have to disagree a little, in that I don't think creating a "hysteria" among politicians will do much good. Politicians do not react to "hysteria" unless there is an imminent problem (rare), or the problem has already happened (much more common).
Our audience here is the common people, people who under-appreciate (or don't know!) about the benefit of the human space program, the international benefits it creates (for 3rd world countries for example), and the enormous future potential it has to bringing us humans together in the long term.
The devastations in Myanmar could have been avoided had more effective usage of space technology been applied (forecasting, communications etc...).
About your 4 points. While they are important, I think our vision goes further than moon exploration. Our vision applies to the entire "philosophy of manned exploration".
I'm really interesting in hearing what you have to say in terms of the technological spinoffs. I think they are a great outcome, but many people disagree, but I don't understand why not... Perhaps you could provide insight?
The company in New Delhi will help us implement the short movie once we have a plan. It needs to be inspiring, along the lines of the IAA survey intro (have you taken it?): http://www.space-expectations.org/
Cheers,
Sanjoy
with all the knowledge man has gained about space, the planets, moons and stars, its impossible to stop man from exploring as far as he can go. several experiences have shown man to be quite curious and insatiable; these artributes have been the main reasons for our progress and development from a species that wonder the earth to organised communities and with anvanced tools and innovation. the documment has done justice to a topic that is so clear and yet so opaque to the skeptics that one wonders if it can be made any clearer than it already is.
indeed the needs of the earth are so great that one's mind can be totally clouded from the possibilities of solutions being "out of this world".
human exploration of outer space has brought a lot of benefits for earth, including most of what is seen today as advanced technology; but this fact is only known by the those in the space industry and a few other entusiasts. i say lets blow up this issue of spin offs...lets make it more accessible to the people... lets tell them in lay mans language 'this is a benefit of space technology'. i am afraid the NASA spinoff CDs and website are only interesting to space bums like us..they should be more down to earth!
apart from lovely pictures what else did the apollo missions do that the common man can relate with? ... lets tell HIM!
indeed the bottom line of our problem is that we are invissible.
technology has improved (greatly helped along by space technology) lets use it to advertise space technology.
zahrah.
the results of recent surveys showing lack of space interest by the younger generation is a cause for concern, but one that is real and must be taken seriously.
perhaps if the younger generation can see itself in space , then it might be interested in space exploration.
1. i think the space agencies should make it a big priority to recruit and fly young people to space before the years 2020-2025 (which are the planned moon exploration years).
as long as only the older generation keep going to the ISS, it will never be seen as 'cool' to the youngsters of today. it must be remembered that those who flew on the appollo missions were young men, and it is their generation that still supports space exploration today, because it was their dream to be like those astronuats..they admired them and related to them.
we have a number of bright young men and women from these space advanced countries that can perform the experiments etc done in space today; as a matter of fact some of the projects are either supported or invented by the entusiasm of a young masters student or PHD researcher.
2. lets make this movie interesting, lets borrow wisdom from advertisement; it seeks to create something that first of all makes you wonder what it is and later makes you say 'oh i know that' and 'i will love that.'....
since we target the common man lets try and use something he will undertand, lets put the space pictures at the end..and allow him to say AH!
ps
within the document, on page 5 the figure of the blue marble, there is (i think)a conflict of dates with what is in the quote and the label of the figure...one says 1968 and the other says 1972...
zahrah
I think if we want to convey the importance of the moon and manned exploration of it, then we should develop an animation depicting the future in which we are living and working on the moon. This way we can show the benefits, the potential, and the possibilities that exist.
-brad
Dear all
I anged reading the well done paper with suportive strong arguments and facts on human based exloration and here is my opinion:
Among all reasons put foward I see one appealing and fundamental reason as to why human based exploration is important.That reason comes for the the words of Steve Squyres, Principal Investigator of the Mars Exploration Rovers, in an interview he gave the Mars Society in 2002 as posted in the document and It reads,
“I’m a big fan of robots, and humans are not a viable substitute for robots when money is tight. But one thing you learn when you work with robots a lot is how dreadfully limited they are in their
capabilities relative to what a human could do in the same environment. For in-depth exploration, there’s just no substitute for humans, nor (I think) will there be one in the foreseeable future. So clearly the right approach is to lead with robots that are helped by humans, and follow later with humans that are helped by robots.”
The argument is very clear in the quote. This reason apeal more in relation to the obvious fact to both religoius and none religious that human is explorative being. Human being can feel and quantfy the feelings, expess them with certain and be understood by another human whereas with machine the results are uncertain.
The other reasons given in the paper to my opinion are benefits/outcomes (that may result form both means of exploration) than rationale.If robots is deployed as a means to explore the space we can expect similar results for human benefits and technological spinoffs and still other political means can be used to foster International relalation.
Therefore, I support the argument that human based exploration is important because s/he is the explorative being and superior to other means in exploration and can not be substuted.
Hi All again!
reference to my post on the stengths and weakness of the paper , I would like to suggest the movie to be made from the reason I supported.
It will be easy to make and I suggest it to be just a comparison of perfomance of robot vs human in research any aspect of space and coment for theer peerfomance
i think that can work for our presentation
Imma
Hi,Sanjoy.
I like you some how.Your replies are carefully thought and to the point.so I wanted to help on your short movie just by suuggesing some ideas.
Introduction
-the first part of the movie should show the past,natural and green earth.When peoples were so thinly dense that there were enough land to plough.show people laughing,running and playing on the seemingly lasting green field.Show what land scapes used to look like,the white bitches with a light blue and white mix ocean views,wide green field meeting a tall dark partially green mountain with an icy topping,long white falls,etc.Show how our environment used to be so friendly to us and how that affects our happiness and well-being.Show the beautiful earth.
In this part of the movie,you have to capture the auduence,make them envy the people who lived on that earth.
-The next part shows the history of our earth from when it starts to bleed(industrial revolution)to present time.Show things start to change for the worst.Factory's chemney's releasing dark toxic ashes,skies getting dark,beautiful land scape being deformed for to build a dark toxic ash releaser factory.More importantly show the audence the earth that they envied on tyhe first part being darkened,deformed.Show medias reporting bad news from allover the world.To make your case later show them also that this had to happen,that it was time for industry and that it was unstoppable human desire to conquor plus rapid population growth demanded resourses to be pulled out at a massive and faster rate.
-The third part of the movie will show the future,the destructed,dark,ozone free,tree and grass free.Rusted metal every where.cities expanded 10 times and more,filled with buildings with tiny apartments to accomodate the jaw dropping population size.Most part of the day being dark people stays at home during the day time(infear of UV radiation)and get up to move around in search of food at night,crime every where,dead bodies and bodies reminants every where.Caughing every where.People will do not give a damn for their protocol and social values they look tiny,hungry and dirty.The audience must hate this earth but with things going at the present times rates it is inevitable.This part will show the ecologically dead earth and the hopeless man.
-The fourth and final part of the movie will deal with glimmer of hope.Leaders of the world coming together discuss matters like they have never discussed it before,national interest being replaced by humanity,investing their resourses,giving away their complex and advanced scientific discoveries, and fellow human beings of diverse color and back ground, as if their is no tomorrow.Show a very big numbe of differnt colored scientists bowing their head working in teams in a huge and sophisticated laboratories,trying to find solution.
All this is:-
-To try and heal our home spaceship(Earth). OR
-To search for a new home.(you can show a huge spaceship being built).
GOOD LUCK.
Hi!!
My name is Laura, and I´m a science journalist from Argentina. I´m very happy that I can participate in this project!!
I have just downloaded the document to my computer (the one Sanjoy mentioned in a post of March...) to read it carefully, and I´ll do a feed back this weekend.
I think I can help in the part of communicating our messages to the "common people". I´m thinking how it would be the best way to make the short movie...
Is there any plan of deadlines for the videoclip? Sanjoy, you mentioned August, but maybe we could plan different deadlines to organize the work.
Well, it´s a pleasure to be working with you all!
Best wishes from Buenos Aires!
Laura
Hi All,
Thank you all for your excellent posts. All very stimulating and interesting. I will post a more thoughtful post this weekend, particularly in response to Emmanuel and Findbini's posts, but in the mean time, I invite you to look for space images that inspire you, that we can put in the movie. Make sure all images are publicly released, and make a note of where you found them. The reason is that I foresee our movie to be similar to that of the IAA: http://www.space-expectations.org/ (but happy to discuss alternatives!).
The deadline I am foreseeing for the paper is August 14, simply because most of it is already written, and it should be easy to finish it with all your excellent inputs.
As for the movie, my goal is to have a finished script and layout by the end of SGC. Once that is done, we can forward it to a professional company to have a professional end-product.
Nicole, to answer your questions, goals and dates are:
1/ continue constructive criticism on the paper with discussions and debates on this forum.
2/ have it done by August 14
3/ think of a structure for the movie: I'm thinking like the intro found here: http://www.space-expectations.org/ simply because I get the goosebumps everytime I look at it, but please share your opinions!!
All the Best,
Sanjoy
Hi Sanjoy,
Discovery Channel is going to release a tv show about the most important missions of NASA, including the Mercury, Geminis and Apollo programs, the shuttle´s era and the latest missions.
At least in latin America, the first "chapter" (they are going to be six) is going to be on tv on July, 6th.
I wonder if we could use some of those images, which are really moving. Maybe we could ask for authorization to Discovery Channel and NASA, do you think is a good idea?
Cheers,
Laura
All,
Thanks for this very interesting discussion. I have carefully read your posts / ideas.
However, at this pace and strategy, we will not be able to efficiently complete the document together. I could synthesize your thoughts and write it myself, but that would defeat the purpose of it having it being a truly international creation. As such: **to all that want to contribute to the document directly**, please sign-up for an account with google documents:
Google documents allows us to edit a document directly, the master copy remaining online.
Once you have done so, email me at "sanjoy at u.washington.edu" with your email (the one you used to sign-up), and I will give your write access to the document.
The only rule is as follows, since I want to easily keep track of the changes, to ensure the flow, and quality of our work: everytime you make a change highlight it in a color that you choose (eg: Laura's color will be blue, Nicole red, Emmanuel orange etc..) with your name written in the beginning and highlighted with your color.
That way, we will be able to contribute to the document directly from our home computers.
Now, about your comments:
Zahrah, I agree that the spinoff section in our paper is weak. It needs to be embellished and more clearly expressed. Laura and Nicole, your experiences in bringing science to the common people will be of great asset here. I also really like your sentence "indeed the needs of the earth are so great that one's mind can be totally clouded from the possibilities of solutions being "out of this world". This hits the problem exactly: with so much problems existing on Earth why spend so much money for human-based space exploration? And that's why this point is addressed in the paper (section: "Human-based space exploration: a global topic"). Feel free to expand upon it if it was not clear enough
Emmanuel, yes the quote by Squyres is very elucidating. Today the European Football championship ended, with a splendid victory of Spain against Germany. Not being Spanish and seeing the joy of the Spaniards as their team lifted the trophy, accompanied by the intense emotion seen in their faces, and in the faces of there fans, i could not stop imagining myself this: imagine that the competition was a football competition between Spanish robots and German robots, playing the same sport with the same rules and that the spanish robots won. Would there have been a similar emotional response by an entire nation? Of course not, not even close. That's why the human element is sooo important in space exploration, and I can bet you that a Spanish Chief Executive Officer in the crowd was hugging a Spanish garbageman. They were one. Now imagine that extrapolated to the world, and now you will appreciate the power of human-based space exploration.
Findbini, I like your storyline, but I think it focuses too much on climate. Sure climate is a big problem, but sending a man in space will not solve climate. What it can do is promote climate *awareness*; for example, by showing a picture of the Earth and realizing how *thin* the atmosphere is (and as a correlary, how even thinner the oceans are...), and as such, our movie should also touch on the philosophy on manned exploration, but ALWAYS keeping an international context. That's how our movie will be different than the others: it will have been brought to life by a truely international crowd: you all.
Laura, yes I have seen a few episodes and they are indeed pretty cool! But before we ask them for permission to use footage, we need to agree on a layout. In my next post (this one is getting a little long), I will layout what I envision for our movie, we can iterate from there. However, if you have a strong idea on the layout, don't hesitate to post!!
Warm Regards from Seattle,
Sanjoy
Ok I'm going to establish the simplest movie that comes to my mind, and we can build on that. I am an advocate of the KISS principle (Keep It Simple and Straightforward).
1/ I foresee using the slideshow of images in the IAA intro (website above), but removing their text.
2/ Put a background music (classical).
3/ Have fly-throughs video statement by us (recorded at SGC) of why it is important for humans to pursue space exploration, with name and country of the interviewee. (fade-in, fade-out?)
4/ End with the Blue Marble
Thoughts?
Dear All!
I real appreciate your inputs and the feedback by Sanjoy!
I agree that the pressence of Laura in this forum is of benefit because she will help on media coverage and impact the society with SGS attempts.
Its unfortunate am out of access to the Discovery channel to see the show.
Thanks Nordan for your questions for they provided more focus to our participation here.
In fact I have never work with google editing document but this is a learning opportunity and thanks Sanjoy.
I appreciate again!
Emmanuel Olotu
also whe you talk about the 2004 vision that the US president presented are you refering to the " VIsion for Space Exploration" the same one where the shuttle was terminated? b/c if that is the case I think we shoudl refer to the Vision for Spca Exploration
Thanks Nicole!
For those who haven't seen it, you can find it here: http://www.googlelunarxprize.org/lunar/about-the-prize/introductory-vide...
A few comments:
1/ It's great! But...
2) It's a little long I think. We should aim towards 3-5 mins, versus 8 mins for the GLXP movie
However, it touches some aspects that we definitely want in our movie as well:
1/ The fact that people all over the world will be stirred by it.
2/ That the entire world is the beneficiary, not some country or company.
3/ Everyone can participate, not only the space fairing nations.
I think it would be great to have short video clips of the sgc attendeeds (thus international), with short phrases on how why humans need to pursue space exploration.
Nicole has provided some good feedback on the document that is on the google site (see above for instructions).
Send me the email you used to register with google (its free). Register here: http://tinyurl.com/5onz28
Cheers,
Sanjoy
http://images.spaceref.com/news/2008/cxp.charts.pdf
eventhough it is just in the US i think is worth for all of you reading
http://images.spaceref.com/news/2008/cxp.charts.pdf
Hey all,
This is a nice article that puts NASA's budget in perspective
http://www.thespacereview.com/article/898/1
cheers,
Sanjoy
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